You have reminded me of a very sad moment in my life. My husband said to me, "You are over-emotional!" and I stared at him in dismay. "No." I said dejectedly. "It isn't me who is over-emotional. It is you who is emotionless." That was when I realised that the man I believed I had married did not exist and I was going to have to leave and it probably wouldn't bother him in the slightest.
Odds are in reflection your husband realizes he made a mistake but who know I reckon Frances. None my beeswax.
Life is a mystery and who needs bully psychos with a lack of empathy trying to tell us about emotion is what I think....so, dust to dust and better ideas beckon.
It was many decades ago, Ken. It damaged me at the time and it went on damaging me for a very long time. He never really let go of me.... until he died of cancer in 2013 and even beyond that, unfortunately. He was very messed up and he damaged many people with his constant lies, infidelities and absolute failure to commit.
It smashed the rose-coloured glasses that I habitually wore, that is for sure. I developed a fierce independence thereafter and never let anyone rule my life again.
Apparently the entity commenting on your post (just above as I comment upon it as well) will not allow me to say I "like" what they are posting. If said entity is reading this just now - please unblock me if that is the case. If that is not the case, then one wonders - why can't I like what "Depswah" said below?
Anybody proffer an explanation if said entity is silent.
Otherwise, one is left to infer - and the Wolfpack is on the hunt - many Wolfpacks if you must know.
When a parent is the culprit, siblings and social and family circle will be weaponized against the victim. Political figures will "other" their enemies and take attention from their abusive leadership. In business or academia, the individual singled out will be shamed to the rest and be made to appear guilty. These dark personalities are poison for cohesive and positive communal integrity and as Mathew Crawford has written, the Kunlangeta were destroyed by wise tribes in the past.
Yes, you have this correct. The whole totalitarian group turns on the designated scapegoat of the Cluster-B personality. So you may find your entire family waging war and false allegations against you. Even if you as the scapegoat have been totally dedicated to them. Matters not.
Here is one family example. Note that Jeremey was in his second generation of what I call "family totalitarianism":
"B.C. man pleads for family court reform in suicide note
In a scrawled suicide note, he wrote: ‘Parental Alienation is devastating. I loved my children as much as a husband and father could. I see no light’"
I imagine that those who have not experienced personal interaction with individuals like this can't grasp the extent and depth of the narcissism, contempt they have for others and for their need and joy at control. They may understand at some level that their cruelty is wrong, but they don't care, have no remorse, and certainly experience no regret. Just as they recognize each other, they recognize those most likely be bullied and abused, those most unlike them of course.
It has been good reading, thanks for writing this series.
Those who have not experienced being on the receiving end of this really have no idea. Even if they have read all of the literature. To experience this intellectually and to experience this in personal reality are two entirely different things. No comparison whatsoever.
Do you not realize many of the posters here have experienced this "first hand" - so ain't nobody got a monopoly on this, but some of us refute this sort of behavior - so know this - you ain't alone.
Oh, I do. Some have, and some have not. I think we discussed this once before. It does necessarily separate the wheat from the chaff, in many ways. Not that anyone would have voluntarily made that choice.
Excellent analysis and comparison! It verifies a lot of behavior I've seen living here in Japan for 42 years as typically "human, all too human" rather than uniquely Japanese culture.
Cheers from Japan, and thank you for covering probably the most salient variable beneath a world that never seems to get its act together.
After reading the article and seeing your comment, I want to ask you, is it possible that you can provide some example or description of what you mention? Because you see, I consume a lot of japanese culture, (mostly manga and anime) but I want to know this culture in more depth. I am aware that many of their current works, be it literary, manga, and anime are quite reprehensible (not all of them of course) not only from a western point of view, but also from the most basic moral point of view. Sometimes I have wondered if those works are really the mark of their culture, or buried under many layers are scattered but covertly individuals with PPPs who thrive in those areas. What is your experience knowing that you have lived there long enough? Thank you.
I can't say much about popular art and culture as my hobbies are mostly centered around out door sports (mostly fishing) and music (mostly jazz and modern Brazilian). But from personal experience in the toxic work force, and sometimes even in volunteer NPOs, the PPP behavior is now clear to me, but only in retrospect. I suppose I will always be an easy mark because of:
1 — my temperament (always ready to lend a helping hand) to those I perceive as unfairly marginalized,
2 — my ideals, (instinctively wanting to believe that most people are good and want to do the right thing), and
3 — suspect that many PPPs are more clever than I am, and more practiced in their camoulflage and deceptive behavior
While it is easy to see through the transparently corrupt kabuki show of national politics ... the empty promises and platitudes made before elections, the brazen evasion of responsibility even when caught in corruption, the musical chairs cronyism of Japanese versions of Public-Private-Partnerships, etc.
I have too many personal stories to share here and now, but just my most recent is how a younger man and his wife started a competing English school (for kids) at the same community center I had already been advertising and teaching at. When I introduced myself, found we appeared to share the same disillusionment with public education (I've worked in public schools and been a tenured professor — both horror stories for another time), and suggested we partner up. As his own English skills were marginal (Dunning-Kruger) and he had no experience as a teacher, I spent about 6 months working pro-bono until we made a profit — 3 days a week, having long meetings with him, interviewing prospective part-time teachers, teaching the kids and teaching him and his wife how to teach kids, and buying snacks and materials for the classes. Just before summer vacation, I calculated. in my head that we had gathered enough students to be making a profit, and I brought up the topic of sharing the profits. Suddenly, he unilaterally changed the meaning of "partner" to 6 months of "volunteer" work to help "a friend" ... and if I wanted a piece of the action from then on, it would be as his part-time employee working at an hourly wage below the legal minimum. Of course I declined his kind offer. But what hurt the most is that the other Japanese I had introduced to him did not care enough to protest to him, much less withdraw their kids and go elsewhere. On the contrary, a mutual "friend" I had introduced to him said that he was "a little dishonest", but not "a bad person" — as if his bait and switch partnership was an acceptable business tactic. I suspect his lack of professionalism and business ethics will eventually end his school, but not before leaving a lot of damage in his wake.
As with my experiences in the public school system and as a tenured professor (Applied Linguistics, Jissen Women's College) ... when predatory behavior is exposed by a foreigner, the automatic fallback response is that we foreigners do not understand unique Japanese culture, and if that fails, we do not understand the Japanese language well enough, which results in a 'misunderstanding' that mysteriously always leans to the predator's advantage.
The role of a token foreigner is a fractal of the role of the Japanese wage-slave ... understand just enough to follow orders from self-selecting dark triads. Same old, same old.
Well, this is starting to make sense. I have been trying to learn about these issues for some time by watching other foreigners living there on youtube, as well as other Japanese, who are self-critical. For example, this youtuber comments on how the Bushido philosophy is actually harmful to their society: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJuVUnouo6E
The point is that as a consumer of their form of entertainment which is mostly manga and anime, I have come across works that have literally provoked an intense rejection (not to say that they have turned my stomach and I have even found myself hating them, not understanding how it is possible that they put effort into drawing, animating or writing situations that can be described as hell on earth, without even being stories made to teach a moral, just a glorification of evil). And making me wonder if these are isolated cases or a real reflection of the dark side of their society.
For me it is very very sad, because it is... how is it possible this contradiction between his creativity to make exceptionally good visual art and use it to describe horrible ordeals?
Again, thank you for your response. Now I understand a little more.
My pleasure, but also a never ending rabbit hole. I have also wondered about the relationship between creativity and pathological traits. As with politicians, lawyers, medical practitioners, and professional bureaucrats ... I suspect many famous actors, writers, painters, etc. are so good at their craft because they are born-to-the-bone psychopaths ... great at observing human behavior, selecting what works, and perfecting imitations of real empathy or passion. The same goes for musicians ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjRs9vTRoxo
My comment to that YouTube post ...
"A lot of the comments here show the average consumer does not know the difference between psychopathy and sociopathic behavior. A good intro. would be either the Ponerology substack, or James Fallon's book "The Psychopath Within". A psychopath is morphologically predetermined (from birth) to be incapable of empathy, guilt, or remorse the way most people experience those emotions, and they are not necessarily "evil". So to survive, they have to become exceptionally good observers and imitators of neurotypical human nature. The more successful ones gravitate towards the pathologically narcissistic end of the "dark-triad" spectrum (hey everybody, look at me). The less successful ones tend to end up in prison for not being able to control their impulses, or for an added fourth variable to the dark triad of pathological narcissism, machiavellian opportunism, and morphologically defined psychopathy ... sadism. I think a good case can be made for adding Stan Getz to this short list."
So I am stuck in a conumdrum ... it appears that without some element of dark-triad behavior traits, there might be much fewer innovations in the arts and sciences, and therefore little of what we call "culture" or modern "civilization".
Once you get past the language barrier and get settled into a profession or career, it is pretty much the same dog-eat-dog experience as I knew in the states, but a bit less optimistic because there is no similar illusion to "the American Dream". Though it takes years to see it, Japanese society is quite rigidly hierarchical and there is not much upward social mobility, especially since the economic bubble burst. But especially because of the weak yen, Japan is a nice place to visit. Just my 2 yen worth.
My pleasure Pauline ... but embarrassed to reduce such a full-bodied question to a single paragraph. Like other boomers who are still alive and kicking, it would take a book to even outline the ups and downs, much less go into particulars. Meh ... that's life for ya.
It is reasonable to assess roughly 30% of those suffering psychopathic trauma to develop the condition themselves; although, in having developed brains consisting of formed conscience...They can be helped and often are when the risk of loss of something once greatly loved is threatened.
Those of secular psychology often dismiss possibility of Demonization resulting from trauma. Exorcists in this time report tremendous growth and intensity of evil in our time in that once what required a week to eradicate now requires years.
The personalities he's discussing often completely lack such biological structures possible necessary to grow to provide healthy emotional maturity.
I finished reading Karen Mitchell's entire thesis and boy, did I have flashbacks of 'Nam, so to say, in respect of my first marriage. It was just absolute providence - the mercy of God - that got me out before I was dead and with a minimum of conflict.
Kind of. She's arguing that all the existing constructs are flawed because they lack essential attributes, or include secondary ones. So, for example, "psychopathy," according to current definitions, includes certain behavioral attributes that aren't universal to what what she sees as a wider category, "DP."
I wonder if it is a matter of degree in some situations. Such as Borderline Personality Disorder and Narcissistic Personality Disorder being less severe than Psychopathy. Though NPD has many of the same traits.
I think BPD and NPD are more like "catch-alls" - they capture distinct types under the same name. Maybe with better descriptions, we could tease out the "PPPs/psychopaths" that get lumped in with borderlines and narcissists. E.g., malignant narcissism seems more like a direct description of psychopathy.
I agree that when people describe the condition they call "Malignant Narcissism", it sounds to me like Psychopathy.
BPD is fairly specific. Hits far more women than men. And they are prone to self-harm and suicide. Dialectical Behaviour Therapy is said to have some success with them.
Someone with NPD can be very destructive and has low empathy; they will discard on a dime even long-term relationships. As if the person never existed. But they are far less likely than Psychopaths to kill for kicks. Their motivation is to find chronic attention and admiration.
My career was in applied linguistics, and a fundamental assumption I ascribe to is that all language and logic are ultimately metaphorical in origin (Wittgenstein's Ladder, Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems, transcending the planck constant, etc.), and provisional social constructs. Certainly the idea of "provisional social construct" has been maliciously gamed and weaponized such as with the cultural-gender war ripping through much of the Western world (and now here in Japan) ... but a better example is the concept of "race" in America. Biologically, distinct "race" is nonsense, unless one is using "race" as a euphemism for "species" as in "the human race". Here in Japan for example, while there are many examples of institutionalized nationalism, "race" is not part of the narrative, and not required for I.D., official forms, etc. Chinese or Southeast Asians tend to be lower in social currency than caucasians.
My point in bringing up the provisional aspect of language is that any scale or paradigm for identifying psychopaths is a provisional construct, and once the psychopath learns the scale or paradigm, they inevitably find a way to game it to their advantage.
I have found it useful to distinguish psychopaths from sociopaths with the following ... like the video beginning this substack post, true "psychopaths" are born, not made. They are morphologically incapable of empathy as defined by neurotypical people ... and not necessarily "evil" ... as in the case of James Fallon (author of "The Psychopath Within"). It is a biologically defined medical condition.
"Sociopathy" I define as a wide range of behaviors that have negative effects on society. This is where a continuum of behaviors may range from non-sociopathic narcissism (dressing up for the prom) to pathological narcissism (and similar behavior traits for opportunism) lays. Here, "sociopathy' is a provisional social construct and what may be sociopathic to one. person may be "a winner" in the game of life from another perspective. Here, it gets really complicated depending on who is defining the term and naming names, and then there is the confounding variable of the previously mentioned metaphorical nature of language, and zero-sum game theory.
One implication of this distinction is that although the heuristics of science can shed light on identifying and dealing with psychopathy, science alone is insufficient. Like teaching or raising kids, dealing with psychopaths is more of an "art" than a science. This is one of the points where I disagree with Lobaczweski's attempt to reduce "evil" to a science. JMHO, but I think "science" and "ethics" are two different domains with different heuristics, and either of them alone are insufficient. Perhaps a good novel, or even a song is as applicable ... e.g. the lyrics of this classic ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIffz-72B8Y
All in all, I think Hare's psychopathy check list is a provisionally useful tool, but the ancient Greeks or Chinese had their own paradigms, which were more or less useful — until they weren't. Likewise, it is dangerous to use counseling therapy on true psychopaths. They will simply observe the heuristics, incorporate those techniques into their skill set, and weaponize it. A constant cat-and-mouse war between mankind and its own worst nature.
Good observation Paul. Through my observations as the permanent token foreigner of Japanese institutions, I am reminded of a section from MLK Jr. "Letter From a Birmingham Jail" ... "Individuals may see the moral light and give up their unjust
posture; but as Reinhold Niebuhr has reminded us, groups are more immoral than individuals."
One reason I prefer Lobaczewski to Desmet is because Desmet tends to minimize the salience of dark triads by focussing on mass formation psychosis — but I think one positive take-away from triangulating between the two is that scale itself (population size) is problematic to morals and sustainability.
The Anna Karenina Principle might come into play here ... "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." But that way is the specific combination of situational and temperamental variables that make up the skeletons in the family closet.
While some relationships in families, among friends, and in small communities may rely on empathy-driven behavior, once we exceed Dunbar's number (roughly between 150 and 250 people), the size of the group necessitates steeper, less egalitarian hierarchies that are rule-driven rather than empathy-driven. By "rule", I mean the form of empathy, but without the necessity of real empathy ... such as habits, customs, traditions, ceremonies, ordinances, mandates, laws, algorithms, ad nauseum. Form without feeling could also apply as a division (though necessarily arbitrary) between "art" and "bread and circuses" entertainment.
Once we expand our numbers from "social" primates to "herding", "flocking", "schooling", or "swarming" sizes — we have an advantage over most other animals with our symbol making and sharing intelligence — but with symbols displacing immediate empathy, we are also selling a little of our soul to the devil.
And with the scale comes more hiding places for dark triads (such as volumes of laws and fine print from which corporate lawyers make billions for their masters) ... and ways to consolidate and concentrate centralized power, another reason I prefer Lobaczewski's analysis to Desmet's.
One logical implication of my fear of large numbers ... particularly the size of corporate nation states (a relatively new historic development), or (god forbid) the globalist ilk of Davos / Who / UN / E.U. ? World Bank, etc. They would reduce our numbers to a more 'manageable' size and I suspect Covid was just an excuse to get the mRNA in us ... as with other techniques targeting our right to private ownership, safe food, and clean water and air. A big fly in the ointment is that there is most likely a high correlation between the self-selecting "deciders" (they) and dark triad personality traits.
The late biological Ernst Mayr had a grim take on this, which Chomsky summarized well in the first two paragraphs of his 2010 Chapel Hill Speech, "Human Intelligence and the Environment" — https://chomsky.info/20100930/
I have my ups and downs, but on my darker days, I tend to agree with Mayr ... or as the late Stephen Hawking put it "Greed and stupidity will mark the end of the human race."
"One reason I prefer Lobaczewski to Desmet is because Desmet tends to minimize the salience of dark triads by focussing on mass formation psychosis —"
Lobaczewski, Desmet, and McGilchrist each have grasped one part of the elephant, I suspect. Though McGilchrist may be the widest thinker here, with the largest chunk of that elephant.
Lobaczewski is a much more satisfying read than Desmet for those looking to understand the very bizarre manifestation of Pathocracy.
Lobaczewski focuses upon what happens to the human experience under a long and serious run of unresolved trauma and/or unresolved dependency needs. When the polarizing Cluster-B spectrum takes over, and divides a population or a family or any infected group into predator and prey.
I find that Mattias Desmet understands the longterm build-up to this -- what he calls mechanistic thinking (McGilchrist refers to this as the overly dominant left-brain hemisphere). Lobaczewski was not as far ahead there; he looked mainly as the on-the-ground results of this.
Though both Lobaczewski and Desmet were looking at totalitarianism (I think of political psychopathy as a subset of overall totalitarianism, found in many sorts of groups).
I myself tend to call the phenomenon totalitarianism, as in a very dysfunctional group under the authority of a Cluster-B leader which is united by both that authority and by the group narrative, of which questioning or dissent is never allowed because it threatens to break the delusion. They are in a Shared Psychosis.
I found Desmet's onus on "Mass Psychosis" a bit odd, but I suppose that he was trying to make a splash during COVID Mania, and so he chose to define the most obvious feature found on the side of the masses. Mass Psychosis/Shared Psychosis/Collective Delusion is really just a manifestation of Totalitarianism/Pathocracy. A warning bell. Not the gist of the issue. He drops that onus in his book, and picks up the theme of mechanistic thinking, which I think was confusing for some readers.
While Desmet focuses on the Mass Psychosis manifestation of Totalitarianism/Pathocracy, he fails to mention Psychopathy at all. Though a Mass Psychosis cannot exist without control by Cluster-B personalities in the background. If Desmet wanted to shine a light on mechanistic thinking, why focus initially on one manifestation without the other?
Iain McGilchrist gets right down to the root of it all. For instance, I have realized for years that Schizophrenia was often found in parentally-alienated children grown up. Or in their children. Why? What was the link? I came very close to seeing it, but McGilchrist got there first. It is a brain hemispheric imbalance issue. So is Psychopathy, I believe.
Lobaczewski described the phenomenon of it (which 95% of the world seems to be blind to), Desmet described the warning-bell manifestation of Mass Psychosis without knowing that it linked to Psychopathy....but he did know that it emanated from mechanistic thinking.
McGilchrist put his finger on the likely cause, and then worked backwards into surmising about the various warning-bell conditions. Though I must say, I have not yet read through his two-volume opus after Master and Emissary.....waiting for delivery of it. I have read of it, at this point.
You know, the irony is that in order to read and grasp the work of Lobaczewski, Desmet, and McGilchrist, a person much use a highly developed level of left-brain analysis.
The Ouroboros or mandelbrot sets are great metaphors for the limits of linear language and logic. And that raises the parallel question as to why some people are able to see the necessarily provisionally metaphorical nature of language and logic, while others can not.
Reminds me something I think Kierkegaard (Either / Or) once wrote ... (can't quote it exactly) about the lone wanderer spending years in mountain altitudes without coming across even a sign of humans until he finally comes across a road sign saying "Truth, 10 Miles Further Down the Road", immediately clasps the road sign saying "I have found it", and the journey ends.
Very well thought out, including the blind-men / elephant metaphor! I have not yet read McGilchrist's "The Master and his Emissary", but through Gary Sharpe's substack, became enough of a fan to subscribe to McGilchrist's newsletter.
From your description of his take on left-brain / right-brain psychology, I am reminded of Jill Bolte Taylor's TED talk and book, "My Stroke of Insight". It may have been only a couple of years after her talk that someone on Quora recommended I check out the video. I was unprepared, and by the end of the 20 minutes, I was in tears.
Though I have never suffered a stroke, back in my undergrad days (biology / philosophy at UNC-Wilmington and Chapel Hill), I messed around with light psycho-actives ... (hash oil from a test tube), a close brush with death (scuba diving) and suicide (first love thingy) ... and the logic-defying effects on those three experiences sent me on a search-for-truth path that has not stopped since, sometimes in the tautological or contradictory dead-ends such as Russell and Whitehead's Principia or The Tractaus, sometimes in the mysticism of Taoist-Zen-Sufi-or Christian equivalents of transcending or reconciling a split between the sacred and the secular. Whatever. My own personal struggle was enough for me to recognize the sacred and the-secular-at-its-best speaking through Taylor in her TED talk.
Not knowing that she was already world famous, I immediately looked up her e-mail address and dashed off a letter to her asking for permission for my seminar students here in Japan to translate her talk into Japanese. She graciously agreed, but then added it had already been translated into Japanese and about another dozen languages, along with her book. Dumbfounded and apologetic, we exchanged a few more e-mails and of all things, ended up talking about the psychological roots and implications of music. I went on and used her TED talk and parts of her book in classes, and her thoughts inspired a lot of otherwise bored college students because those translated very easily into both the more artistic/spiritual Japanese traditions (like zen "satori") and the more common but still rare experiences of "kandou" (profoundly moving experiences when one's distinction between self and other, self and surroundings is dropped ... such as first kiss with a beloved, watching the first sunrise of a new year, near-death experiences, etc. It was shortly after I discovered her work that Japan's Educational TV, NHK-E, broadcast two separate documentaries about her, which I recorded and later used in other classes.
I mentioned the above because although I haven't read McGilchrist's book yet, he seems to be travelling down a path similar to Jill Bolte Taylor. You've rekindled my interest in him ... though I've got a few more to finish including the latest about Lahaina (Sound the Alarm: The Maui Disaster ...), and Isobel Wilkerson's "Caste" ... all connected with the globalist agenda and ponerology angle.
Regarding Desmet, I am a bit more cynical. After seeing him in interview after interview, I could not help but to notice that in failing to mention the sociopaths driving the mass psychosis, he is also avoiding naming names and assigning responsibility or lack of ... a very clever way of protecting his own job and high social profile. I can not help but to think he is knowingly diverting attention from where it should be directed. For that, I am grateful for the likes of Margaret Anna Alice, Tess Lawrie, Jessica Rose, and so on ... each, twice the warrior and truth-teller that Desmet is.
Thanks for the deep-dive, Steve. Good insights. I will read this over several times and absorb the fine points.
I read Jill Bolte Taylor when her book first came out...later heard the TED Talk too. Excellent material.
I see on the McGilchrist Channel that Iain McGilchrist and Mattias Desmet are speaking in a joint venue and presentation on October 26, in London. They will live-stream it, apparently. Which leads me to believe that they do indeed see reflections in one another's work.
Although as you say, I found Desmet less than forthcoming in either his Mass Formation podcasts or his book. Not that I support the attacking Breggins, because they come with issues too. However, Desmet left out choice bits (though I really liked his fractal analogies). I did wonder, also, how he could get away with such public pronouncements while remaining on faculty at his university of employment, during COVID Mania no less.. Perhaps, as you suggest, it was through not bringing up the Ponerology specifics or naming names.
Ooo. With the rise of the internet and social media, Japan also had (probably still has) what the media here has termed "revenge porn" ... and it appears to be jilted lovers who were most responsible, both male and female perpetrators.
I suspect that there are complex causes of herding behavior along a continuum between top-down (from sociopaths hell-bent on predatory, opportunistic behavior) and bottom-up (those who are not yet morally autonomous being attracted to the excitement and cookie-cutter identity that comes from being part of a tribe).
Was chatting with substack buddy (Dr.) John Day about this just a few days ago through the lens of 'bread and circuses'. We both feel uneasy as part of large spectacles. Even during the height of my own post-pubescent testosterone rush, I preferred intimate cellar jazz dives to discos or rock arenas. But even quiet intimacy can be subverted and weaponized by fully conscious predators, or the identity politics of small, snobbish cliques.
I had a go at that theme recently on another Substack:
"People hanker for herds because they have not developed their own personhood. Tribes demanding scarification of all young initiates (West Africa). All the way to brain-deactivated Western societies demanding COVID jabs for herd inclusion/personhood.
Modern tattooing/piercing is an initiation ceremony into the herd. For personhood, when you have not managed this is other ways. Cults recruit people of low-personhood. Desperate for a herd to validate them.
The secret is....you do not need a crowd. Inner personhood is the key. Outer personhood is a very poor substitute. It also demands ridiculous sacrifices. Just thought I'd throw that in there. Good night."
About a year and a half ago, I went back to the states (Tucson) to say my farewells to my fully jabbed mom who died a few months later, and being in Japan so long ... where most public baths still forbid those with tattoos from entrance (a sign of Yakuza or similar gang allegiance) ... was aghast at the percentage of even young people with tattoos, piercing, etc.
I don't consider myself a prude (who does?), but I felt like I had entered a Biblical Babylon hellscape.
I recently saw a young bride, in full white lace, also sporting vile blotches of blue ink (like a skin disease) down her arms and neck. A real juxtaposition. If one can be excused for gagging at the sight of a bride...I did, on that occasion.
Biblical Babylon Hellscape is an excellent way of putting it.
Thank you for your interesting discussion, Steve. Sorry for the loss of your mother. My condolences.
This is all good sharing - but I'm not sure it can all be so formulaic. At the end of the day, if one has no empathy for others feelings and emotions then that will be evident and seems the time is upon us when those who have those attributes no longer get lofted into positions of authority - cause tis equivalent to letting the fox run the hen house I reckon Harrison.
Although I agree with the "should" and "hope" of your sentiment, I hesitate to share in the optimism for at least three reasons.
1 — As I was just writing in my own comment, 42 years of living in Japan ... and the analysis does a good job at describing the behavior of many Japanese when in a position of authority over a non-Japanese. I suspect this is universal.
2 — The analysis seems to be a pretty good framework for understanding the rise and fall, rinse and repeat of empires since the dawn of civilization.
3 — I don't think a neurotypical person's awareness of dark-triad types can be passed on through generations. It has to be experienced to really learn it. Every generation, every individual (except the dark triads), must begin the process of social maturation from ground zero at birth.
I think your hope is often correct in the short run, but in the ruins of what I call a "tower of Babel syndrome", the same process of scaling beyond the empathetic limits of Dunbar's number, and gaming the system by dark-triads, repeats until collapse, and then starts all over again.
At the end of the day - suggest to me - the local arrangements are best - makes it easy to keep these global psychos at bay.
You know what I mean - and I don't think I used the words "should" and "hope" above - because I'm a scientist, so please read what I said more closely before you try to put words in my mouth hombre.
I ain't "knocking" the analysis, I'm just saying better ideas beckon.
Simple as that - with no psychopath ideology - cause this is simply common sense, and so really - don't let spells be cast that are easily refuted - and was it not way back in some of the discussions it was stated these folks with this mindset - are actually equivalent to teenager mentality?
I think so, and really - tis easy to tell brats they are in the wrong - tis easy....and that is part of growing up and being a well-informed adult.\
Stats whiz and educator Mathew Crawford seems to have had enough run-ins with them that he did a short analysis that culminated in an Inuit word for dark-triads ... "kulangeta". Maybe a bit too foreign sounding to catch on in English.
I was on a call earlier when Harrison commenced the calls on Ponerology and there were several folks on the calls obviously been harmed in a way by these psychos - and one fella in particular what he said resonated with me when he said - they have the minds of children in their behavior - tis just they are now adults and I don't think they merit adulation - and in fact, seems to me many of them are just little brats didn't get a proper upbringing.
In the original studies they were known as "moral imbeciles" (still my favourite term, all "psychopaths", DPs and PPPs notwithstanding), and it was not to insult them: all those words, "idiot", "imbecile", and later "moron" were used as psychiatric diagnoses, reflecting a certain mental - and in this case moral - age. An imbecile was an adult having a mental/moral age of 3 to 7, above the idiot but below the moron. So with that astute observation the fella in question practically revived the original studies of "psychopathy", quite some time before Cleckley.
Yeah, emotionally underdeveloped kids sounds like a good description. But some of them seem to have an advantage in some situations. Since they expend so little time and energy on empathy, they can devote their full resources on scheming and exploitation. The low functioning ones may end up in prison, but the clever ones seem to dominate the performing arts, politics, institutions such as colleges, hospitals, and corporations. I am at a loss at how to deal with them other than to withdraw from "civilized" world and retreat into family, local community, or solitude ... though even small groups can have their share of skeletons in the closet, Francis's comment being a tragic example.
In terms of modern Ponerology, I find PM Keir Starmer of England quite worrisome.
The writing was on the wall prior to the last general election, where he rose to power. But like other populations before them, the Brits appear to have had their eyes firmly shut when they cast their ballots. All but the 4 million voters who backed the Reform Party.
The data suggest that even where the most determined people of non-DP might give up on an agenda because they have been exposed as fraudulent or ill meaning, people of DP will keep going.
“They take enormous risks as they genuinely don’t believe they will be caught out.” (Category 3)
“When confronted with contradicting evidence, they will change their story. They provide a new version, without any indication of stress/distress.” (Category 3)
The result is that people who don’t know what they’re dealing with tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, “because it may be too hard to reconcile the facts with the powerfully expressed false narrative.”
These Dark Personalities thereby induce Cognitive Dissonance in other normal people.
“Their brazenness is one of the things that makes them persuasive because they are so brazen about what they say and do that it sounds truthful even when it isn’t.” (Category 3)
This is one of the reasons their Smear Campaigns against their targets are effective. They spread false allegations with such self-confidence, even though these are entirely fabricated, that normal listeners cannot believe anyone would sound so confident in their assertions unless these were true.
This was the basis of the Carl Beech scam in the UK some years ago, against the mighty Metropolitan Police Force no less.
As such, PPPs are perfectly willing to “harm, sacrifice, manipulate, or disadvantage their own children in situations where it benefited themselves.”
As a result, their targets/victims often appear “over-reactive, ‘dramatic’, ‘crazy’ as a result of DP manipulations, humiliations, provocations, and harm.”
These are two Cluster-B/PPP traits seen regularly in a family phenomenon known as Parental Alienation. When the DP parent flips into a Jekyll & Hyde routine, suddenly discarding the normal parent/spouse. And luring the children into the DP's serfdom.
The Family Courts often award full custody of the children to the Dark Personality parent simply because they appear so "calm and non-dramatic" on the stand. While the authentically loving parent is highly distraught over what they and the children have already been put through....and what will be coming in future if the DP parent wins any amount of custody.
During my teaching years, I reluctantly came to the conclusion that one of my students was a psychopath. A sixth grader! I say reluctantly because I have had no experience with psychopaths and so I gave him the benefit of the doubt for several months. This child was smart, conniving, clever at bullying and very devious. When I shared my observations with other staff one response stood out. A teacher who had lengthy experience with this child, very frankly told me that this child is the one you’ll hear about some day as a mass murderer.
Interestingly, most students were onto him, especially the girls. Unsuspecting new students were fresh meat for him. I warned the parent of a new student, but being the principal he couldn’t or wouldn’t believe me. Guess what happened?
Yep, they were targeted, the principals’ son was reduced to tears, stopped coming to school and the principal quit. I didn’t quit for three more years. I stood firm and rational and kept the receipts for all the issues that arrived. I can only hope that teenage hormones might have changed him eventually. Who knows? They walk among us.
You have reminded me of a very sad moment in my life. My husband said to me, "You are over-emotional!" and I stared at him in dismay. "No." I said dejectedly. "It isn't me who is over-emotional. It is you who is emotionless." That was when I realised that the man I believed I had married did not exist and I was going to have to leave and it probably wouldn't bother him in the slightest.
Odds are in reflection your husband realizes he made a mistake but who know I reckon Frances. None my beeswax.
Life is a mystery and who needs bully psychos with a lack of empathy trying to tell us about emotion is what I think....so, dust to dust and better ideas beckon.
Ken
It was many decades ago, Ken. It damaged me at the time and it went on damaging me for a very long time. He never really let go of me.... until he died of cancer in 2013 and even beyond that, unfortunately. He was very messed up and he damaged many people with his constant lies, infidelities and absolute failure to commit.
Living in a toxic situation absolutely, has no joy! Has this decision worked it's self out, to your betterment? Your beautiful smile, says it has.
Blessings ~
It smashed the rose-coloured glasses that I habitually wore, that is for sure. I developed a fierce independence thereafter and never let anyone rule my life again.
Apparently the entity commenting on your post (just above as I comment upon it as well) will not allow me to say I "like" what they are posting. If said entity is reading this just now - please unblock me if that is the case. If that is not the case, then one wonders - why can't I like what "Depswah" said below?
Anybody proffer an explanation if said entity is silent.
Otherwise, one is left to infer - and the Wolfpack is on the hunt - many Wolfpacks if you must know.
They always get their prey.
Frances, I can certainly identify with this sentiment - I too have become a very strong woman!
Frances, thank you for your comment. You have no idea!
When a parent is the culprit, siblings and social and family circle will be weaponized against the victim. Political figures will "other" their enemies and take attention from their abusive leadership. In business or academia, the individual singled out will be shamed to the rest and be made to appear guilty. These dark personalities are poison for cohesive and positive communal integrity and as Mathew Crawford has written, the Kunlangeta were destroyed by wise tribes in the past.
Yes, you have this correct. The whole totalitarian group turns on the designated scapegoat of the Cluster-B personality. So you may find your entire family waging war and false allegations against you. Even if you as the scapegoat have been totally dedicated to them. Matters not.
Here is one family example. Note that Jeremey was in his second generation of what I call "family totalitarianism":
"B.C. man pleads for family court reform in suicide note
In a scrawled suicide note, he wrote: ‘Parental Alienation is devastating. I loved my children as much as a husband and father could. I see no light’"
National Post Canada
Mar 28, 2017
I imagine that those who have not experienced personal interaction with individuals like this can't grasp the extent and depth of the narcissism, contempt they have for others and for their need and joy at control. They may understand at some level that their cruelty is wrong, but they don't care, have no remorse, and certainly experience no regret. Just as they recognize each other, they recognize those most likely be bullied and abused, those most unlike them of course.
It has been good reading, thanks for writing this series.
Those who have not experienced being on the receiving end of this really have no idea. Even if they have read all of the literature. To experience this intellectually and to experience this in personal reality are two entirely different things. No comparison whatsoever.
Do you not realize many of the posters here have experienced this "first hand" - so ain't nobody got a monopoly on this, but some of us refute this sort of behavior - so know this - you ain't alone.
Oh, I do. Some have, and some have not. I think we discussed this once before. It does necessarily separate the wheat from the chaff, in many ways. Not that anyone would have voluntarily made that choice.
For sure - who wants to interact with a psycho - not I!
But they are out there - but they have the minds of children apparently and that is not in anybody's interest.
BK
Excellent analysis and comparison! It verifies a lot of behavior I've seen living here in Japan for 42 years as typically "human, all too human" rather than uniquely Japanese culture.
Cheers from Japan, and thank you for covering probably the most salient variable beneath a world that never seems to get its act together.
Hello.
After reading the article and seeing your comment, I want to ask you, is it possible that you can provide some example or description of what you mention? Because you see, I consume a lot of japanese culture, (mostly manga and anime) but I want to know this culture in more depth. I am aware that many of their current works, be it literary, manga, and anime are quite reprehensible (not all of them of course) not only from a western point of view, but also from the most basic moral point of view. Sometimes I have wondered if those works are really the mark of their culture, or buried under many layers are scattered but covertly individuals with PPPs who thrive in those areas. What is your experience knowing that you have lived there long enough? Thank you.
Hi Guillermo.
I can't say much about popular art and culture as my hobbies are mostly centered around out door sports (mostly fishing) and music (mostly jazz and modern Brazilian). But from personal experience in the toxic work force, and sometimes even in volunteer NPOs, the PPP behavior is now clear to me, but only in retrospect. I suppose I will always be an easy mark because of:
1 — my temperament (always ready to lend a helping hand) to those I perceive as unfairly marginalized,
2 — my ideals, (instinctively wanting to believe that most people are good and want to do the right thing), and
3 — suspect that many PPPs are more clever than I am, and more practiced in their camoulflage and deceptive behavior
While it is easy to see through the transparently corrupt kabuki show of national politics ... the empty promises and platitudes made before elections, the brazen evasion of responsibility even when caught in corruption, the musical chairs cronyism of Japanese versions of Public-Private-Partnerships, etc.
I have too many personal stories to share here and now, but just my most recent is how a younger man and his wife started a competing English school (for kids) at the same community center I had already been advertising and teaching at. When I introduced myself, found we appeared to share the same disillusionment with public education (I've worked in public schools and been a tenured professor — both horror stories for another time), and suggested we partner up. As his own English skills were marginal (Dunning-Kruger) and he had no experience as a teacher, I spent about 6 months working pro-bono until we made a profit — 3 days a week, having long meetings with him, interviewing prospective part-time teachers, teaching the kids and teaching him and his wife how to teach kids, and buying snacks and materials for the classes. Just before summer vacation, I calculated. in my head that we had gathered enough students to be making a profit, and I brought up the topic of sharing the profits. Suddenly, he unilaterally changed the meaning of "partner" to 6 months of "volunteer" work to help "a friend" ... and if I wanted a piece of the action from then on, it would be as his part-time employee working at an hourly wage below the legal minimum. Of course I declined his kind offer. But what hurt the most is that the other Japanese I had introduced to him did not care enough to protest to him, much less withdraw their kids and go elsewhere. On the contrary, a mutual "friend" I had introduced to him said that he was "a little dishonest", but not "a bad person" — as if his bait and switch partnership was an acceptable business tactic. I suspect his lack of professionalism and business ethics will eventually end his school, but not before leaving a lot of damage in his wake.
As with my experiences in the public school system and as a tenured professor (Applied Linguistics, Jissen Women's College) ... when predatory behavior is exposed by a foreigner, the automatic fallback response is that we foreigners do not understand unique Japanese culture, and if that fails, we do not understand the Japanese language well enough, which results in a 'misunderstanding' that mysteriously always leans to the predator's advantage.
The role of a token foreigner is a fractal of the role of the Japanese wage-slave ... understand just enough to follow orders from self-selecting dark triads. Same old, same old.
Cheers
Thank you for your quick response.
Well, this is starting to make sense. I have been trying to learn about these issues for some time by watching other foreigners living there on youtube, as well as other Japanese, who are self-critical. For example, this youtuber comments on how the Bushido philosophy is actually harmful to their society: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJuVUnouo6E
The point is that as a consumer of their form of entertainment which is mostly manga and anime, I have come across works that have literally provoked an intense rejection (not to say that they have turned my stomach and I have even found myself hating them, not understanding how it is possible that they put effort into drawing, animating or writing situations that can be described as hell on earth, without even being stories made to teach a moral, just a glorification of evil). And making me wonder if these are isolated cases or a real reflection of the dark side of their society.
For me it is very very sad, because it is... how is it possible this contradiction between his creativity to make exceptionally good visual art and use it to describe horrible ordeals?
Again, thank you for your response. Now I understand a little more.
Hi Guillermo.
My pleasure, but also a never ending rabbit hole. I have also wondered about the relationship between creativity and pathological traits. As with politicians, lawyers, medical practitioners, and professional bureaucrats ... I suspect many famous actors, writers, painters, etc. are so good at their craft because they are born-to-the-bone psychopaths ... great at observing human behavior, selecting what works, and perfecting imitations of real empathy or passion. The same goes for musicians ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjRs9vTRoxo
My comment to that YouTube post ...
"A lot of the comments here show the average consumer does not know the difference between psychopathy and sociopathic behavior. A good intro. would be either the Ponerology substack, or James Fallon's book "The Psychopath Within". A psychopath is morphologically predetermined (from birth) to be incapable of empathy, guilt, or remorse the way most people experience those emotions, and they are not necessarily "evil". So to survive, they have to become exceptionally good observers and imitators of neurotypical human nature. The more successful ones gravitate towards the pathologically narcissistic end of the "dark-triad" spectrum (hey everybody, look at me). The less successful ones tend to end up in prison for not being able to control their impulses, or for an added fourth variable to the dark triad of pathological narcissism, machiavellian opportunism, and morphologically defined psychopathy ... sadism. I think a good case can be made for adding Stan Getz to this short list."
So I am stuck in a conumdrum ... it appears that without some element of dark-triad behavior traits, there might be much fewer innovations in the arts and sciences, and therefore little of what we call "culture" or modern "civilization".
Ha. Damned if we are, damned if we aren't.
Despite it all,
cheers
Also v curious about your experience living in Japan.
Hi Pauline.
Once you get past the language barrier and get settled into a profession or career, it is pretty much the same dog-eat-dog experience as I knew in the states, but a bit less optimistic because there is no similar illusion to "the American Dream". Though it takes years to see it, Japanese society is quite rigidly hierarchical and there is not much upward social mobility, especially since the economic bubble burst. But especially because of the weak yen, Japan is a nice place to visit. Just my 2 yen worth.
Cheers
Appreciate your reply Steve, thank you.
My pleasure Pauline ... but embarrassed to reduce such a full-bodied question to a single paragraph. Like other boomers who are still alive and kicking, it would take a book to even outline the ups and downs, much less go into particulars. Meh ... that's life for ya.
Cheers again!
It is reasonable to assess roughly 30% of those suffering psychopathic trauma to develop the condition themselves; although, in having developed brains consisting of formed conscience...They can be helped and often are when the risk of loss of something once greatly loved is threatened.
Those of secular psychology often dismiss possibility of Demonization resulting from trauma. Exorcists in this time report tremendous growth and intensity of evil in our time in that once what required a week to eradicate now requires years.
The personalities he's discussing often completely lack such biological structures possible necessary to grow to provide healthy emotional maturity.
Different origins of different categories of Psychopathy, of course. Some appears to be biological, and some induced.
I finished reading Karen Mitchell's entire thesis and boy, did I have flashbacks of 'Nam, so to say, in respect of my first marriage. It was just absolute providence - the mercy of God - that got me out before I was dead and with a minimum of conflict.
What's not clear to me is how "DP" is different from "psychopathic" or "sociopathic." Is Karen Mitchell just renaming a well-known phenomenon?
Kind of. She's arguing that all the existing constructs are flawed because they lack essential attributes, or include secondary ones. So, for example, "psychopathy," according to current definitions, includes certain behavioral attributes that aren't universal to what what she sees as a wider category, "DP."
See the first part of this series for more background: https://ponerology.substack.com/i/147489243/what-are-we-studying
I wonder if it is a matter of degree in some situations. Such as Borderline Personality Disorder and Narcissistic Personality Disorder being less severe than Psychopathy. Though NPD has many of the same traits.
I think BPD and NPD are more like "catch-alls" - they capture distinct types under the same name. Maybe with better descriptions, we could tease out the "PPPs/psychopaths" that get lumped in with borderlines and narcissists. E.g., malignant narcissism seems more like a direct description of psychopathy.
I agree that when people describe the condition they call "Malignant Narcissism", it sounds to me like Psychopathy.
BPD is fairly specific. Hits far more women than men. And they are prone to self-harm and suicide. Dialectical Behaviour Therapy is said to have some success with them.
Someone with NPD can be very destructive and has low empathy; they will discard on a dime even long-term relationships. As if the person never existed. But they are far less likely than Psychopaths to kill for kicks. Their motivation is to find chronic attention and admiration.
Hello Albert.
My career was in applied linguistics, and a fundamental assumption I ascribe to is that all language and logic are ultimately metaphorical in origin (Wittgenstein's Ladder, Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems, transcending the planck constant, etc.), and provisional social constructs. Certainly the idea of "provisional social construct" has been maliciously gamed and weaponized such as with the cultural-gender war ripping through much of the Western world (and now here in Japan) ... but a better example is the concept of "race" in America. Biologically, distinct "race" is nonsense, unless one is using "race" as a euphemism for "species" as in "the human race". Here in Japan for example, while there are many examples of institutionalized nationalism, "race" is not part of the narrative, and not required for I.D., official forms, etc. Chinese or Southeast Asians tend to be lower in social currency than caucasians.
My point in bringing up the provisional aspect of language is that any scale or paradigm for identifying psychopaths is a provisional construct, and once the psychopath learns the scale or paradigm, they inevitably find a way to game it to their advantage.
I have found it useful to distinguish psychopaths from sociopaths with the following ... like the video beginning this substack post, true "psychopaths" are born, not made. They are morphologically incapable of empathy as defined by neurotypical people ... and not necessarily "evil" ... as in the case of James Fallon (author of "The Psychopath Within"). It is a biologically defined medical condition.
"Sociopathy" I define as a wide range of behaviors that have negative effects on society. This is where a continuum of behaviors may range from non-sociopathic narcissism (dressing up for the prom) to pathological narcissism (and similar behavior traits for opportunism) lays. Here, "sociopathy' is a provisional social construct and what may be sociopathic to one. person may be "a winner" in the game of life from another perspective. Here, it gets really complicated depending on who is defining the term and naming names, and then there is the confounding variable of the previously mentioned metaphorical nature of language, and zero-sum game theory.
One implication of this distinction is that although the heuristics of science can shed light on identifying and dealing with psychopathy, science alone is insufficient. Like teaching or raising kids, dealing with psychopaths is more of an "art" than a science. This is one of the points where I disagree with Lobaczweski's attempt to reduce "evil" to a science. JMHO, but I think "science" and "ethics" are two different domains with different heuristics, and either of them alone are insufficient. Perhaps a good novel, or even a song is as applicable ... e.g. the lyrics of this classic ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIffz-72B8Y
All in all, I think Hare's psychopathy check list is a provisionally useful tool, but the ancient Greeks or Chinese had their own paradigms, which were more or less useful — until they weren't. Likewise, it is dangerous to use counseling therapy on true psychopaths. They will simply observe the heuristics, incorporate those techniques into their skill set, and weaponize it. A constant cat-and-mouse war between mankind and its own worst nature.
Despite it all,
Cheers
Excellent satire on academic-speak!
That IS what it is, right?
People see what they want to see.
It is what it is. 🙃
God. PPP describes the entire Jewish State of Murdering Maiming Starving Occuping Raping Palestine.
The sickness of PPP is ensconced in Zyklon Blinken and Himmler Yellen.
Good observation Paul. Through my observations as the permanent token foreigner of Japanese institutions, I am reminded of a section from MLK Jr. "Letter From a Birmingham Jail" ... "Individuals may see the moral light and give up their unjust
posture; but as Reinhold Niebuhr has reminded us, groups are more immoral than individuals."
One reason I prefer Lobaczewski to Desmet is because Desmet tends to minimize the salience of dark triads by focussing on mass formation psychosis — but I think one positive take-away from triangulating between the two is that scale itself (population size) is problematic to morals and sustainability.
The Anna Karenina Principle might come into play here ... "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." But that way is the specific combination of situational and temperamental variables that make up the skeletons in the family closet.
While some relationships in families, among friends, and in small communities may rely on empathy-driven behavior, once we exceed Dunbar's number (roughly between 150 and 250 people), the size of the group necessitates steeper, less egalitarian hierarchies that are rule-driven rather than empathy-driven. By "rule", I mean the form of empathy, but without the necessity of real empathy ... such as habits, customs, traditions, ceremonies, ordinances, mandates, laws, algorithms, ad nauseum. Form without feeling could also apply as a division (though necessarily arbitrary) between "art" and "bread and circuses" entertainment.
Once we expand our numbers from "social" primates to "herding", "flocking", "schooling", or "swarming" sizes — we have an advantage over most other animals with our symbol making and sharing intelligence — but with symbols displacing immediate empathy, we are also selling a little of our soul to the devil.
And with the scale comes more hiding places for dark triads (such as volumes of laws and fine print from which corporate lawyers make billions for their masters) ... and ways to consolidate and concentrate centralized power, another reason I prefer Lobaczewski's analysis to Desmet's.
One logical implication of my fear of large numbers ... particularly the size of corporate nation states (a relatively new historic development), or (god forbid) the globalist ilk of Davos / Who / UN / E.U. ? World Bank, etc. They would reduce our numbers to a more 'manageable' size and I suspect Covid was just an excuse to get the mRNA in us ... as with other techniques targeting our right to private ownership, safe food, and clean water and air. A big fly in the ointment is that there is most likely a high correlation between the self-selecting "deciders" (they) and dark triad personality traits.
The late biological Ernst Mayr had a grim take on this, which Chomsky summarized well in the first two paragraphs of his 2010 Chapel Hill Speech, "Human Intelligence and the Environment" — https://chomsky.info/20100930/
I have my ups and downs, but on my darker days, I tend to agree with Mayr ... or as the late Stephen Hawking put it "Greed and stupidity will mark the end of the human race."
Despite it all,
cheers.
"One reason I prefer Lobaczewski to Desmet is because Desmet tends to minimize the salience of dark triads by focussing on mass formation psychosis —"
Lobaczewski, Desmet, and McGilchrist each have grasped one part of the elephant, I suspect. Though McGilchrist may be the widest thinker here, with the largest chunk of that elephant.
Lobaczewski is a much more satisfying read than Desmet for those looking to understand the very bizarre manifestation of Pathocracy.
Lobaczewski focuses upon what happens to the human experience under a long and serious run of unresolved trauma and/or unresolved dependency needs. When the polarizing Cluster-B spectrum takes over, and divides a population or a family or any infected group into predator and prey.
I find that Mattias Desmet understands the longterm build-up to this -- what he calls mechanistic thinking (McGilchrist refers to this as the overly dominant left-brain hemisphere). Lobaczewski was not as far ahead there; he looked mainly as the on-the-ground results of this.
Though both Lobaczewski and Desmet were looking at totalitarianism (I think of political psychopathy as a subset of overall totalitarianism, found in many sorts of groups).
I myself tend to call the phenomenon totalitarianism, as in a very dysfunctional group under the authority of a Cluster-B leader which is united by both that authority and by the group narrative, of which questioning or dissent is never allowed because it threatens to break the delusion. They are in a Shared Psychosis.
I found Desmet's onus on "Mass Psychosis" a bit odd, but I suppose that he was trying to make a splash during COVID Mania, and so he chose to define the most obvious feature found on the side of the masses. Mass Psychosis/Shared Psychosis/Collective Delusion is really just a manifestation of Totalitarianism/Pathocracy. A warning bell. Not the gist of the issue. He drops that onus in his book, and picks up the theme of mechanistic thinking, which I think was confusing for some readers.
While Desmet focuses on the Mass Psychosis manifestation of Totalitarianism/Pathocracy, he fails to mention Psychopathy at all. Though a Mass Psychosis cannot exist without control by Cluster-B personalities in the background. If Desmet wanted to shine a light on mechanistic thinking, why focus initially on one manifestation without the other?
Iain McGilchrist gets right down to the root of it all. For instance, I have realized for years that Schizophrenia was often found in parentally-alienated children grown up. Or in their children. Why? What was the link? I came very close to seeing it, but McGilchrist got there first. It is a brain hemispheric imbalance issue. So is Psychopathy, I believe.
Lobaczewski described the phenomenon of it (which 95% of the world seems to be blind to), Desmet described the warning-bell manifestation of Mass Psychosis without knowing that it linked to Psychopathy....but he did know that it emanated from mechanistic thinking.
McGilchrist put his finger on the likely cause, and then worked backwards into surmising about the various warning-bell conditions. Though I must say, I have not yet read through his two-volume opus after Master and Emissary.....waiting for delivery of it. I have read of it, at this point.
You know, the irony is that in order to read and grasp the work of Lobaczewski, Desmet, and McGilchrist, a person much use a highly developed level of left-brain analysis.
I find that a giggle!
LOL. Yeah.
The Ouroboros or mandelbrot sets are great metaphors for the limits of linear language and logic. And that raises the parallel question as to why some people are able to see the necessarily provisionally metaphorical nature of language and logic, while others can not.
Reminds me something I think Kierkegaard (Either / Or) once wrote ... (can't quote it exactly) about the lone wanderer spending years in mountain altitudes without coming across even a sign of humans until he finally comes across a road sign saying "Truth, 10 Miles Further Down the Road", immediately clasps the road sign saying "I have found it", and the journey ends.
Cheers!
Very well thought out, including the blind-men / elephant metaphor! I have not yet read McGilchrist's "The Master and his Emissary", but through Gary Sharpe's substack, became enough of a fan to subscribe to McGilchrist's newsletter.
From your description of his take on left-brain / right-brain psychology, I am reminded of Jill Bolte Taylor's TED talk and book, "My Stroke of Insight". It may have been only a couple of years after her talk that someone on Quora recommended I check out the video. I was unprepared, and by the end of the 20 minutes, I was in tears.
Though I have never suffered a stroke, back in my undergrad days (biology / philosophy at UNC-Wilmington and Chapel Hill), I messed around with light psycho-actives ... (hash oil from a test tube), a close brush with death (scuba diving) and suicide (first love thingy) ... and the logic-defying effects on those three experiences sent me on a search-for-truth path that has not stopped since, sometimes in the tautological or contradictory dead-ends such as Russell and Whitehead's Principia or The Tractaus, sometimes in the mysticism of Taoist-Zen-Sufi-or Christian equivalents of transcending or reconciling a split between the sacred and the secular. Whatever. My own personal struggle was enough for me to recognize the sacred and the-secular-at-its-best speaking through Taylor in her TED talk.
Not knowing that she was already world famous, I immediately looked up her e-mail address and dashed off a letter to her asking for permission for my seminar students here in Japan to translate her talk into Japanese. She graciously agreed, but then added it had already been translated into Japanese and about another dozen languages, along with her book. Dumbfounded and apologetic, we exchanged a few more e-mails and of all things, ended up talking about the psychological roots and implications of music. I went on and used her TED talk and parts of her book in classes, and her thoughts inspired a lot of otherwise bored college students because those translated very easily into both the more artistic/spiritual Japanese traditions (like zen "satori") and the more common but still rare experiences of "kandou" (profoundly moving experiences when one's distinction between self and other, self and surroundings is dropped ... such as first kiss with a beloved, watching the first sunrise of a new year, near-death experiences, etc. It was shortly after I discovered her work that Japan's Educational TV, NHK-E, broadcast two separate documentaries about her, which I recorded and later used in other classes.
I mentioned the above because although I haven't read McGilchrist's book yet, he seems to be travelling down a path similar to Jill Bolte Taylor. You've rekindled my interest in him ... though I've got a few more to finish including the latest about Lahaina (Sound the Alarm: The Maui Disaster ...), and Isobel Wilkerson's "Caste" ... all connected with the globalist agenda and ponerology angle.
Regarding Desmet, I am a bit more cynical. After seeing him in interview after interview, I could not help but to notice that in failing to mention the sociopaths driving the mass psychosis, he is also avoiding naming names and assigning responsibility or lack of ... a very clever way of protecting his own job and high social profile. I can not help but to think he is knowingly diverting attention from where it should be directed. For that, I am grateful for the likes of Margaret Anna Alice, Tess Lawrie, Jessica Rose, and so on ... each, twice the warrior and truth-teller that Desmet is.
Cheers, and thanks for a well-rounded comment!
Thanks for the deep-dive, Steve. Good insights. I will read this over several times and absorb the fine points.
I read Jill Bolte Taylor when her book first came out...later heard the TED Talk too. Excellent material.
I see on the McGilchrist Channel that Iain McGilchrist and Mattias Desmet are speaking in a joint venue and presentation on October 26, in London. They will live-stream it, apparently. Which leads me to believe that they do indeed see reflections in one another's work.
Although as you say, I found Desmet less than forthcoming in either his Mass Formation podcasts or his book. Not that I support the attacking Breggins, because they come with issues too. However, Desmet left out choice bits (though I really liked his fractal analogies). I did wonder, also, how he could get away with such public pronouncements while remaining on faculty at his university of employment, during COVID Mania no less.. Perhaps, as you suggest, it was through not bringing up the Ponerology specifics or naming names.
Here is one family that lost empathy:
"Woman who posted intimate photos of father’s mistress jailed
Judge describes Eleanor Brown, 24, as ‘totally devoid of any moral compass’"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/10/21/woman-posted-intimate-photos-fathers-mistress-jailed/
So much for feminist sisterhood.....
Ooo. With the rise of the internet and social media, Japan also had (probably still has) what the media here has termed "revenge porn" ... and it appears to be jilted lovers who were most responsible, both male and female perpetrators.
Making the implicit.... explicit.
Herding can also be used as an excuse not to undergo self-differentiation. Trouble there.
Agreed A.
I suspect that there are complex causes of herding behavior along a continuum between top-down (from sociopaths hell-bent on predatory, opportunistic behavior) and bottom-up (those who are not yet morally autonomous being attracted to the excitement and cookie-cutter identity that comes from being part of a tribe).
Was chatting with substack buddy (Dr.) John Day about this just a few days ago through the lens of 'bread and circuses'. We both feel uneasy as part of large spectacles. Even during the height of my own post-pubescent testosterone rush, I preferred intimate cellar jazz dives to discos or rock arenas. But even quiet intimacy can be subverted and weaponized by fully conscious predators, or the identity politics of small, snobbish cliques.
I had a go at that theme recently on another Substack:
"People hanker for herds because they have not developed their own personhood. Tribes demanding scarification of all young initiates (West Africa). All the way to brain-deactivated Western societies demanding COVID jabs for herd inclusion/personhood.
Modern tattooing/piercing is an initiation ceremony into the herd. For personhood, when you have not managed this is other ways. Cults recruit people of low-personhood. Desperate for a herd to validate them.
The secret is....you do not need a crowd. Inner personhood is the key. Outer personhood is a very poor substitute. It also demands ridiculous sacrifices. Just thought I'd throw that in there. Good night."
Bingo!
About a year and a half ago, I went back to the states (Tucson) to say my farewells to my fully jabbed mom who died a few months later, and being in Japan so long ... where most public baths still forbid those with tattoos from entrance (a sign of Yakuza or similar gang allegiance) ... was aghast at the percentage of even young people with tattoos, piercing, etc.
I don't consider myself a prude (who does?), but I felt like I had entered a Biblical Babylon hellscape.
Good night from Japan, A.
A nice place to visit.
I recently saw a young bride, in full white lace, also sporting vile blotches of blue ink (like a skin disease) down her arms and neck. A real juxtaposition. If one can be excused for gagging at the sight of a bride...I did, on that occasion.
Biblical Babylon Hellscape is an excellent way of putting it.
Thank you for your interesting discussion, Steve. Sorry for the loss of your mother. My condolences.
This is all good sharing - but I'm not sure it can all be so formulaic. At the end of the day, if one has no empathy for others feelings and emotions then that will be evident and seems the time is upon us when those who have those attributes no longer get lofted into positions of authority - cause tis equivalent to letting the fox run the hen house I reckon Harrison.
Ken
Hello BK.
Although I agree with the "should" and "hope" of your sentiment, I hesitate to share in the optimism for at least three reasons.
1 — As I was just writing in my own comment, 42 years of living in Japan ... and the analysis does a good job at describing the behavior of many Japanese when in a position of authority over a non-Japanese. I suspect this is universal.
2 — The analysis seems to be a pretty good framework for understanding the rise and fall, rinse and repeat of empires since the dawn of civilization.
3 — I don't think a neurotypical person's awareness of dark-triad types can be passed on through generations. It has to be experienced to really learn it. Every generation, every individual (except the dark triads), must begin the process of social maturation from ground zero at birth.
I think your hope is often correct in the short run, but in the ruins of what I call a "tower of Babel syndrome", the same process of scaling beyond the empathetic limits of Dunbar's number, and gaming the system by dark-triads, repeats until collapse, and then starts all over again.
Cheers
At the end of the day - suggest to me - the local arrangements are best - makes it easy to keep these global psychos at bay.
You know what I mean - and I don't think I used the words "should" and "hope" above - because I'm a scientist, so please read what I said more closely before you try to put words in my mouth hombre.
Ken
I ain't "knocking" the analysis, I'm just saying better ideas beckon.
Simple as that - with no psychopath ideology - cause this is simply common sense, and so really - don't let spells be cast that are easily refuted - and was it not way back in some of the discussions it was stated these folks with this mindset - are actually equivalent to teenager mentality?
I think so, and really - tis easy to tell brats they are in the wrong - tis easy....and that is part of growing up and being a well-informed adult.\
Regards,
BK
Maybe I am just a slow learner.
Been burned one time too many.
Stats whiz and educator Mathew Crawford seems to have had enough run-ins with them that he did a short analysis that culminated in an Inuit word for dark-triads ... "kulangeta". Maybe a bit too foreign sounding to catch on in English.
Cheers.
Nicely stated and I appreciate good discourse.
I was on a call earlier when Harrison commenced the calls on Ponerology and there were several folks on the calls obviously been harmed in a way by these psychos - and one fella in particular what he said resonated with me when he said - they have the minds of children in their behavior - tis just they are now adults and I don't think they merit adulation - and in fact, seems to me many of them are just little brats didn't get a proper upbringing.
Regards,
BK
In the original studies they were known as "moral imbeciles" (still my favourite term, all "psychopaths", DPs and PPPs notwithstanding), and it was not to insult them: all those words, "idiot", "imbecile", and later "moron" were used as psychiatric diagnoses, reflecting a certain mental - and in this case moral - age. An imbecile was an adult having a mental/moral age of 3 to 7, above the idiot but below the moron. So with that astute observation the fella in question practically revived the original studies of "psychopathy", quite some time before Cleckley.
Yeah, emotionally underdeveloped kids sounds like a good description. But some of them seem to have an advantage in some situations. Since they expend so little time and energy on empathy, they can devote their full resources on scheming and exploitation. The low functioning ones may end up in prison, but the clever ones seem to dominate the performing arts, politics, institutions such as colleges, hospitals, and corporations. I am at a loss at how to deal with them other than to withdraw from "civilized" world and retreat into family, local community, or solitude ... though even small groups can have their share of skeletons in the closet, Francis's comment being a tragic example.
Nice chatting with you about a bleak subject.
Cheers from Japan
if you say so....
This perfectly describes the behavior of the predator class controlling us all
Yes. They are the Psychopathic class, wishing to rule the masses. There are times and places in which this becomes possible, for various reasons.
The Cluster-B personalities can be seen/detected in personal relationships, but they can also be seen/detected on a society-wide scale.
In terms of modern Ponerology, I find PM Keir Starmer of England quite worrisome.
The writing was on the wall prior to the last general election, where he rose to power. But like other populations before them, the Brits appear to have had their eyes firmly shut when they cast their ballots. All but the 4 million voters who backed the Reform Party.
I sense Psychopathy in the present Labour Party.
Those first 4 (and some others) sound like a particular ethnic group.
I just keep thinking-Peter Thiel?
The data suggest that even where the most determined people of non-DP might give up on an agenda because they have been exposed as fraudulent or ill meaning, people of DP will keep going.
“They take enormous risks as they genuinely don’t believe they will be caught out.” (Category 3)
“When confronted with contradicting evidence, they will change their story. They provide a new version, without any indication of stress/distress.” (Category 3)
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There is a certain Prime Minister of a Western country whom this description would fit. He is a "Teflon man".
The result is that people who don’t know what they’re dealing with tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, “because it may be too hard to reconcile the facts with the powerfully expressed false narrative.”
These Dark Personalities thereby induce Cognitive Dissonance in other normal people.
“Their brazenness is one of the things that makes them persuasive because they are so brazen about what they say and do that it sounds truthful even when it isn’t.” (Category 3)
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This is one of the reasons their Smear Campaigns against their targets are effective. They spread false allegations with such self-confidence, even though these are entirely fabricated, that normal listeners cannot believe anyone would sound so confident in their assertions unless these were true.
This was the basis of the Carl Beech scam in the UK some years ago, against the mighty Metropolitan Police Force no less.
As such, PPPs are perfectly willing to “harm, sacrifice, manipulate, or disadvantage their own children in situations where it benefited themselves.”
As a result, their targets/victims often appear “over-reactive, ‘dramatic’, ‘crazy’ as a result of DP manipulations, humiliations, provocations, and harm.”
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These are two Cluster-B/PPP traits seen regularly in a family phenomenon known as Parental Alienation. When the DP parent flips into a Jekyll & Hyde routine, suddenly discarding the normal parent/spouse. And luring the children into the DP's serfdom.
The Family Courts often award full custody of the children to the Dark Personality parent simply because they appear so "calm and non-dramatic" on the stand. While the authentically loving parent is highly distraught over what they and the children have already been put through....and what will be coming in future if the DP parent wins any amount of custody.
During my teaching years, I reluctantly came to the conclusion that one of my students was a psychopath. A sixth grader! I say reluctantly because I have had no experience with psychopaths and so I gave him the benefit of the doubt for several months. This child was smart, conniving, clever at bullying and very devious. When I shared my observations with other staff one response stood out. A teacher who had lengthy experience with this child, very frankly told me that this child is the one you’ll hear about some day as a mass murderer.
Interestingly, most students were onto him, especially the girls. Unsuspecting new students were fresh meat for him. I warned the parent of a new student, but being the principal he couldn’t or wouldn’t believe me. Guess what happened?
Yep, they were targeted, the principals’ son was reduced to tears, stopped coming to school and the principal quit. I didn’t quit for three more years. I stood firm and rational and kept the receipts for all the issues that arrived. I can only hope that teenage hormones might have changed him eventually. Who knows? They walk among us.