Hubbard classified these dangerous personalities as "covertly hostile." They rely totally on secrecy. They are, by and large, cowards. Thus, they would seldom indulge in serial murders. That is more likely to be a sociopath.
He built a whole technology on the problem of detecting and handling such persons. It is part of the subject of Ethics, as he defined it. It slops into the subject of Justice if the person is not detected and restrained before he causes major damage.
(I didn't make it through the entire interview before our visiting little girl demanded that I watch a movie with her. Ah well...)
Current law gives us no framework for handling these people. Thus, we could suspect that our system of Law has been somewhat influenced by this personality type, and thus functions - at least some of the time - to protect him rather than expose him.
I see no need to talk about neurology, brain hemispheres and all that. That is a broken paradigm and the sooner we realize this the better. Reincarnation has been studied academically and by many other serious researchers. I consider it a proven fact. And that takes all important aspects of the mind OUT of the brain and into some sort of energetic structure that is portable and separable from the body. And that takes all important aspects of personality out of the body and into the realm of the "spirit," where it belongs.
If you are not willing to study people as immortal beings, then you will not develop the insights needed to solve the deeper problems of personality.
Our stories of dealing with and interacting with these troubled souls are interesting and I think useful, because THEY would prefer their activities to remain a secret. I have valued these stories over the theoretical discussions, as I have already experienced much of this theory and what I need more of is to see how these personalities operate in the real world.
Appreciate your direction towards the realm of the spirit, not just brain structure & neuroscience. I think of "inherited trauma" (or karma) which is energetically passed on or re-programmed into successive generations of family, culture, ethnicity. I think of Victor Frankl's haunting realization in Man's Search for Meaning, that "the best of us did not (could not) survive." Will the evolution of our better/higher compassionate capacities remain in a "tug of war" with Darwin's initial findings of who/what thrives in a world of scarcity?
This concept of psychopathy seems at the core of our troubles. It is a bug in the system, a glitch that could very well be "fixed." Its simply wiring that "served us" in an evolutionary way, but now is short-circuiting the evolutionary system. Can we let go of "never forget" narratives amidst the network effects of modern media which overload our circuits with data and tap into our primitive circuitry of attention?
Perhaps AI actually helps, and "good" sociopaths like Elon (I sense as net "good") can Trojan Horse some new code in the systems, and allow us to advance a higher form of governance without mass conflict?
Maybe such a naive vision ends up not being better than what we know of life now. Maybe the balance of good-evil is what gives meaning to existence, but I am tired of the violence, graft and fear being peddled in the name of "might & right."
There's gotta be a way to get the collective checkbooks out of the hands of those on the psycho-sociopathic spectrum. Darkness is just the absence of light. I still choose the power of Love since I am blessed to "know" it...
I am suggesting much more than a "not just" approach to understanding our situation. Neuroscience is basically getting absolutely nowhere, except for those interested in building better robots.
Psychopathy is understandable in the context of past lives. It is NOT understandable in the context of evolutionary pressures and genetics. In some ways, "never forget" is a potentially workable way to learn. It's just that it's impossible here on Earth. After every lifetime we forget almost everything. It is an extremely unhelpful situation.
If anyone thinks Elon is a "good sociopath" then they don't know the definition of "good" nor the definition of "sociopath." I think Elon is only a brilliant but confused being. This is the situation with most beings on Earth, brilliant or not.
The good-evil conflict is not necessary to the existence of interesting games. Look at sports! There are many ways to create meaning without resorting to the problem of living evil. We can ascribe evil to the "dead" world. That would be good enough for most purposes.
I also think there is a way to return the political economy to a more ethical path. But it does include the recognition of psychopathy and knowledge of how to handle it.
A very good discussion. I really enjoyed it. But please. We are all adults here. We know the Eichmann trial was a joke. Eichmann endured it by choice out of personal honor, and knew there was no chance of truth. Just like Arendt‘s ridiculous book. So why go there? It just discredits the overall argument. Anyways, that said, excellent points on a very important topic.
Please explain "Eichmann endured it..." as if he were a hero? What truth did he know would never come out? John 3:16 I am familar with as a Christian. Eichmann I am familiar with as a Jewish daughter of Austrian Jews. But who are you?
Who am I? An anon on the internet. Feel free to ignore me.
In my effort to find one of many excellent articles that used to be easily accessible on the topic of Eichmann and Arendt, I scrolled through 35 pages on Startpage until it cut me for being a bot. I went through all the Google results I could get too. My search terms were things like Eichmann Trial Truth About, etc. It’s a strange world where information just disappears..
The Eichmann trial was a joke. He knew it would be, he knew would die, but he went anyways. He went because he wanted to world to know the truth. He didn’t do anything, and ofc no charges were proven. He was tortured prior to the trial and interrogated for several days straight. His lawyer was not allowed to bring in any witnesses. Of course. The trial was in Israel and any witness he could bring would be arrested as a nazi. The one thing he and his lawyer fought for was that the trial might be held in neutral ground, outside of Israel.
But this trial was not about justice, or even Eichmann. It was about forging a national identity for this fledgling nation of Israel, an identity they have built step by step on resentment, bitterness, superiority, and victimhood. A strange nation, a strange people.
Our western values of impartial justice are just that: western values.
You don't believe that he was what history tells us? When you substitute Internet info for the Academy, you go down a deep rabbit hole. What is your reference to John 3:16? You are a Christian? The Bible will give you better insights than surfing the Internet. Remember that the O.T. stories of God's love for the people He chose had nothing to do with their worthiness. They are stories that point to God's grace and love. He could have chosen a different wanderer's descendents. He called Abram. Abram was from Ur of the Chaldees. He could have chosen any other man with the same results because they all point to God's grace. Read St Paul's Letter to the Romans to see what the position is of the Jews. They are no different than other fallible human beings but they were branded to carry the message of salvation by a man, Yeshua, born of Mary, son of man and Son of God, as the story goes. And God has closed their eyes to be blind to the Gospel so that all other peoples, might be saved.
The Jews have been scapegoats for 2000 years just like the goat that appeared in the bushes when Abraham was about to sacrifice his son Isaac
I too am running out of patience. How long before salvation comes for the Jews and for this grossly sinful world?
Anyway, Eichmann carried out the holocaust. If you believe the lies of Satan, crack open your Bible. The demons can't stand to hear the Word of God.
and YOU are a typically stupid ignorant rude imbecile of an American. That's how the civilized world sees us and you are a GREAT example of the blind leading the blind dumb ugly American
what's the reference to John 316? I must have made a mistake. I realize that the Devil to whom you belong quotes Scripture. My mistake. Enjoy your journey to hell.
I know a fair amount of psychopaths and sociopaths.
I have savantism in emotions or people. I can feel others and then see how my brain works if it feels like theirs.
Psychopathy is no or minimal access to the subconscious. They don't get flooded with emotions because they don't bring up the memories. I would imagine they do poorly in the natural state of humans. They would have no warning system for their safety.
Sociopaths have screaming high interoception. I can feel it from them. It is blinding. Their rage takes over to a degree they do not exist. They must hurt those that hurt them like they hurt. It can be a tiny slight but their sense of self is so fragile and their internal signals so high it is enough to kill the other person.
They are broken 1 year olds lashing out at everyone. Some learn to be covert about their emotional displays, but their emotions still rule them. I think most serial killers are probably sociopaths and this is release for them from all those high internal signals.
The cost to maintain the mask of normal for them is so high they need a pressure relief valve. It is very hard to maintain a mask all the time when you are that different. It exhausts them. They think they are fooling everyone but they are not.
Everyone is aware and afraid. I used to watch my dad walk through crowds and people part like a shark though a school of fish. People know one when they see them we just have not been given the vocabulary to say what it is.
Narcissism is found in average people. Sociopaths are the extremes, the autistics. The adhders blur the line between the sociopathy and narcissism. They are milder sociopaths. The ADHDers are the ones I have found most often in business. They are not very good at business. But their frail egos make them do anything to seem successful. They are scam artists. But not usually killers.
Thank you for the insight into this 6th sense. I know a couple of people, like you, who can detect these same people. It's uncanny and accurate. I wonder how many are put on SSRI meds - associated with serial homicide
I would love to know his thoughts regarding the difference between these passive-parasitic psychopaths and other groups with a similar apparent affect, like autistics, sociopaths, and schizophrenics. This is extremely exciting stuff.
So, is he saying society is schizophrenic because there is a disconnect in what we are perceiving? Like, is there something instinctive in us that knows a fake when we perceive it, and feels compelled to call it out? I wouldn’t be a bit surprised to find out that humans are the most pro social species alive, or even possibly that has ever lived on this planet. In such case, a person high in this trait would be the natural enemy of a social parasite.
I’m so intrigued. This could eventually be the key to identifying and isolating those among us who are responsible for so much institutionalized evil, across the political spectrum.
Love Scott Peck’s book, “People of the Lie.” Wish we still had Peck’s voice. He passed away in 2005 but I still read all of his books.
Hubbard classified these dangerous personalities as "covertly hostile." They rely totally on secrecy. They are, by and large, cowards. Thus, they would seldom indulge in serial murders. That is more likely to be a sociopath.
He built a whole technology on the problem of detecting and handling such persons. It is part of the subject of Ethics, as he defined it. It slops into the subject of Justice if the person is not detected and restrained before he causes major damage.
(I didn't make it through the entire interview before our visiting little girl demanded that I watch a movie with her. Ah well...)
Current law gives us no framework for handling these people. Thus, we could suspect that our system of Law has been somewhat influenced by this personality type, and thus functions - at least some of the time - to protect him rather than expose him.
I see no need to talk about neurology, brain hemispheres and all that. That is a broken paradigm and the sooner we realize this the better. Reincarnation has been studied academically and by many other serious researchers. I consider it a proven fact. And that takes all important aspects of the mind OUT of the brain and into some sort of energetic structure that is portable and separable from the body. And that takes all important aspects of personality out of the body and into the realm of the "spirit," where it belongs.
If you are not willing to study people as immortal beings, then you will not develop the insights needed to solve the deeper problems of personality.
Our stories of dealing with and interacting with these troubled souls are interesting and I think useful, because THEY would prefer their activities to remain a secret. I have valued these stories over the theoretical discussions, as I have already experienced much of this theory and what I need more of is to see how these personalities operate in the real world.
Appreciate your direction towards the realm of the spirit, not just brain structure & neuroscience. I think of "inherited trauma" (or karma) which is energetically passed on or re-programmed into successive generations of family, culture, ethnicity. I think of Victor Frankl's haunting realization in Man's Search for Meaning, that "the best of us did not (could not) survive." Will the evolution of our better/higher compassionate capacities remain in a "tug of war" with Darwin's initial findings of who/what thrives in a world of scarcity?
This concept of psychopathy seems at the core of our troubles. It is a bug in the system, a glitch that could very well be "fixed." Its simply wiring that "served us" in an evolutionary way, but now is short-circuiting the evolutionary system. Can we let go of "never forget" narratives amidst the network effects of modern media which overload our circuits with data and tap into our primitive circuitry of attention?
Perhaps AI actually helps, and "good" sociopaths like Elon (I sense as net "good") can Trojan Horse some new code in the systems, and allow us to advance a higher form of governance without mass conflict?
Maybe such a naive vision ends up not being better than what we know of life now. Maybe the balance of good-evil is what gives meaning to existence, but I am tired of the violence, graft and fear being peddled in the name of "might & right."
There's gotta be a way to get the collective checkbooks out of the hands of those on the psycho-sociopathic spectrum. Darkness is just the absence of light. I still choose the power of Love since I am blessed to "know" it...
I am suggesting much more than a "not just" approach to understanding our situation. Neuroscience is basically getting absolutely nowhere, except for those interested in building better robots.
Psychopathy is understandable in the context of past lives. It is NOT understandable in the context of evolutionary pressures and genetics. In some ways, "never forget" is a potentially workable way to learn. It's just that it's impossible here on Earth. After every lifetime we forget almost everything. It is an extremely unhelpful situation.
If anyone thinks Elon is a "good sociopath" then they don't know the definition of "good" nor the definition of "sociopath." I think Elon is only a brilliant but confused being. This is the situation with most beings on Earth, brilliant or not.
The good-evil conflict is not necessary to the existence of interesting games. Look at sports! There are many ways to create meaning without resorting to the problem of living evil. We can ascribe evil to the "dead" world. That would be good enough for most purposes.
I also think there is a way to return the political economy to a more ethical path. But it does include the recognition of psychopathy and knowledge of how to handle it.
A very good discussion. I really enjoyed it. But please. We are all adults here. We know the Eichmann trial was a joke. Eichmann endured it by choice out of personal honor, and knew there was no chance of truth. Just like Arendt‘s ridiculous book. So why go there? It just discredits the overall argument. Anyways, that said, excellent points on a very important topic.
Please explain your comments. I sincerely wish to know more about this.
Please see my response to Run Freedom Run, below.
Please explain "Eichmann endured it..." as if he were a hero? What truth did he know would never come out? John 3:16 I am familar with as a Christian. Eichmann I am familiar with as a Jewish daughter of Austrian Jews. But who are you?
Who am I? An anon on the internet. Feel free to ignore me.
In my effort to find one of many excellent articles that used to be easily accessible on the topic of Eichmann and Arendt, I scrolled through 35 pages on Startpage until it cut me for being a bot. I went through all the Google results I could get too. My search terms were things like Eichmann Trial Truth About, etc. It’s a strange world where information just disappears..
The Eichmann trial was a joke. He knew it would be, he knew would die, but he went anyways. He went because he wanted to world to know the truth. He didn’t do anything, and ofc no charges were proven. He was tortured prior to the trial and interrogated for several days straight. His lawyer was not allowed to bring in any witnesses. Of course. The trial was in Israel and any witness he could bring would be arrested as a nazi. The one thing he and his lawyer fought for was that the trial might be held in neutral ground, outside of Israel.
But this trial was not about justice, or even Eichmann. It was about forging a national identity for this fledgling nation of Israel, an identity they have built step by step on resentment, bitterness, superiority, and victimhood. A strange nation, a strange people.
Our western values of impartial justice are just that: western values.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/banality-of-truth-in-operation-finale-eichmann-propagated-lies-are-validated/
You don't believe that he was what history tells us? When you substitute Internet info for the Academy, you go down a deep rabbit hole. What is your reference to John 3:16? You are a Christian? The Bible will give you better insights than surfing the Internet. Remember that the O.T. stories of God's love for the people He chose had nothing to do with their worthiness. They are stories that point to God's grace and love. He could have chosen a different wanderer's descendents. He called Abram. Abram was from Ur of the Chaldees. He could have chosen any other man with the same results because they all point to God's grace. Read St Paul's Letter to the Romans to see what the position is of the Jews. They are no different than other fallible human beings but they were branded to carry the message of salvation by a man, Yeshua, born of Mary, son of man and Son of God, as the story goes. And God has closed their eyes to be blind to the Gospel so that all other peoples, might be saved.
The Jews have been scapegoats for 2000 years just like the goat that appeared in the bushes when Abraham was about to sacrifice his son Isaac
I too am running out of patience. How long before salvation comes for the Jews and for this grossly sinful world?
Anyway, Eichmann carried out the holocaust. If you believe the lies of Satan, crack open your Bible. The demons can't stand to hear the Word of God.
You’re brainless.
God IS a consuming fire but you, by golly are NOT. You are an idol worshipping follower of the prince of this world. You should get off this site.
My goodness. I clearly hit a nerve. But keep quoting scripture at me and telling me I’m not a real Christian because I have a functioning brain.
and YOU are a typically stupid ignorant rude imbecile of an American. That's how the civilized world sees us and you are a GREAT example of the blind leading the blind dumb ugly American
ok
what's the reference to John 316? I must have made a mistake. I realize that the Devil to whom you belong quotes Scripture. My mistake. Enjoy your journey to hell.
I know a fair amount of psychopaths and sociopaths.
I have savantism in emotions or people. I can feel others and then see how my brain works if it feels like theirs.
Psychopathy is no or minimal access to the subconscious. They don't get flooded with emotions because they don't bring up the memories. I would imagine they do poorly in the natural state of humans. They would have no warning system for their safety.
Sociopaths have screaming high interoception. I can feel it from them. It is blinding. Their rage takes over to a degree they do not exist. They must hurt those that hurt them like they hurt. It can be a tiny slight but their sense of self is so fragile and their internal signals so high it is enough to kill the other person.
They are broken 1 year olds lashing out at everyone. Some learn to be covert about their emotional displays, but their emotions still rule them. I think most serial killers are probably sociopaths and this is release for them from all those high internal signals.
The cost to maintain the mask of normal for them is so high they need a pressure relief valve. It is very hard to maintain a mask all the time when you are that different. It exhausts them. They think they are fooling everyone but they are not.
Everyone is aware and afraid. I used to watch my dad walk through crowds and people part like a shark though a school of fish. People know one when they see them we just have not been given the vocabulary to say what it is.
Narcissism is found in average people. Sociopaths are the extremes, the autistics. The adhders blur the line between the sociopathy and narcissism. They are milder sociopaths. The ADHDers are the ones I have found most often in business. They are not very good at business. But their frail egos make them do anything to seem successful. They are scam artists. But not usually killers.
Thank you for the insight into this 6th sense. I know a couple of people, like you, who can detect these same people. It's uncanny and accurate. I wonder how many are put on SSRI meds - associated with serial homicide
I would love to know his thoughts regarding the difference between these passive-parasitic psychopaths and other groups with a similar apparent affect, like autistics, sociopaths, and schizophrenics. This is extremely exciting stuff.
So, is he saying society is schizophrenic because there is a disconnect in what we are perceiving? Like, is there something instinctive in us that knows a fake when we perceive it, and feels compelled to call it out? I wouldn’t be a bit surprised to find out that humans are the most pro social species alive, or even possibly that has ever lived on this planet. In such case, a person high in this trait would be the natural enemy of a social parasite.
I’m so intrigued. This could eventually be the key to identifying and isolating those among us who are responsible for so much institutionalized evil, across the political spectrum.